Estonian Organisation for Copyright Protection

[NinjaRebel]

I have had a number of profiles in YouTube which have been deleted and removed due to copyright infringement. I only post Vanilla Ninja and now Lenna videos and try not to post anything that could be copied and used as music. My quest is always to promote VN especially in the U.K. where VN are mostly unknown.

Earlier I posted many VN videos of mainly news, clips, documentary and adverts, with many other users posted the videos and concerts. Over the years we have all been deleted due to copyright protection, and now in this last profile I hardly posted anything. I see many posters have been removed and virtually every VN video in my YouTube play list has been deleted. Kurt was removed for posting his own personal concert video recordings, and it appeared there was a witch hunt against Vanilla Ninja and Lenna. Even the fans sites have been hit over copyright violation. Okay it is the law but personally I think this witch hunt has gone too far. The other week a YouTube video I hosted was removed and I received the warning. I had posted a couple of videos one of which was the popular still video which was simply the song Nero from the album Blue Tattoo, and it was with a single still image from the album cover. So wasn’t even a video at all. This video or Nero was removed by request of ‘Estonian Organisation for Copyright Protection’.

Okay I did not have any permission, but I did label it with full information and credits to the band. Plus my sole intention was to promote and advertise Vanilla Ninja.
Before you say – I realise I have broken all sorts of copyright laws, but 99% of all other posted videos are the same. Plus we all break the rules in some form every day. This complaint seemed very trivial.

Anyway I came to the conclusion that Vanilla Ninja and Lenna videos were being specifically targeted, making it difficult for me to promote VN in the U.K. or for anyone else to notice or promote them.
The company responsible for my complaint and many others alike was ‘Estonian Organisation for Copyright Protection’ (EOCP).
I have since looked into EOCP and have had discussion communications with the managing director there Erik Mandre.


I have more to tell on this matter, but has anybody else any input?

[Annomalia]

Well, if you have posted official VN videos or studio versions of VN songs without permission, then of course some organization will complain But I don't see a problem if you publish videos shot by yourself.

Anyway, I don't think it is a special action against VN. Many fansites had similar troubles with copyrights recently. For example, videos of Within Temptation were blocked or even removed from their official account in YouTube Those were official videos published by the band itself in thier official account Only after the situation with copyrights was clarified between YouTube and the record company, the videos of Within Temptation were restored

So, you see we have to be very careful what is published in the Video corner of VNBoard. Therefore, we have these restrictive rules.

[suurprobleem]

I can only say, that my youtube account was permanently closed.
Exact text in you tube, when i try to log in -
Your account has been permanently disabled.

So all my HD videos are now gone and i will not upload anything to youtube!
From now on i will upload all my videos to dailymotion!

No youtube. I suspect, that they react to all reports about violation of copyright.
They even don't bother to control more, simply will close all without any questions!

I would even call you all of you to boycott youtube or write to EOCP. Or maybe even to make a petition from all VN fans to EOCP, or something?

Yes i understand all those laws and yes i have to follow them, but really often those Copyright Protection Organizations even don't ask from artists or creators of those pieces, do they want forbid distribution of their works!
And that's really ridiculous !

BTW. Someone had to tell to EOCP, that those are videos, what have to be removed from youtube. My question is, that who is this person or institution, what made this complaint!! That's the real question...

In my opinion we have to search for source of this removal action And influence him!

[Lexus]

We got several factors here: copyright laws that tend to become more strict last few years, record labels that use every possibility to earn more money and someone who tries to use first two factors against Ninjas (there are tons of such videos on youtube, but only some of them are removed, so agree with suurprobleem - there must be some kind of AntiVNFan).

Petition to EOCP is good idea only if it will be signed by many people, but there aren't much here (at least in the International Corner).

And btw I guess none of the copyright laws considers the facts that sometimes such videos are the only way to promote your favorite band or to see them live. It's just stupid because the more people will know of it from youtube for example - the more will buy their CDs and etc..

[NinjaRebel]

Yet another of my popular VN videos removed. Again on the complaint of ‘Estonian Organisation for Copyright Protection’ (EOCP).
They are on a witch hunt for VN and Lenna. :-(


Like I said I understand by the letter of the law it is illegal to post virtually anything for public viewing, but I still say it can become stupid and ridiculous.
Okay I shall now tell more of what happened.

I found out from YouTube who complained and was informed - ‘Estonian Organisation for Copyright Protection’ (EOCP).
So I wrote to them the letter and also sent it to Broken Record. Surprisingly I got a rapid reply from Hector Faune with full backing and support - authorisation. This was a letter sent to many parties but directed at EOCP and addressed to the managing director there Erik Mandre. I was copied in to the official letter.
The next day I received the letter of explanation from Erik Mandre - Managing Director of ‘Estonian Organisation for Copyright Protection’ EOCP.
There was then a number of communications between myself and Mr Erik Mandre.
Unfortunately my reasoning had no influence on their quest, and to rub it in they then focused on my other VN and Lenna videos, having them removed too. EOCP knew that on behalf of VN I had permission from Hector Faune of Broken Record (Vanilla Ninja), but they still pursued a video of Ballroom Blitz which is a Slade song and wasn’t even a released song by VN.
I put it to them that permission was given and that any other parties - song writers etc, were foreign and so outside their jurisdiction. EOCP has it’s own agenda, and both VN and Lenna are at the top of this.

This is not personal to me, and to be honest I have been removed from YouTube before by their complaints. But I returned to continue the quest. But things are much worse now, with nearly all VN and Lenna being removed and VN fans being banned and deleted. It is not only the videos but the high ratings and many comments that are being lost.
I have researched and found that many other Estonian bands don’t get targeted the same. In comparison nothing is different and those videos are in worse violation, but yet these videos are safe and have been up for years and have millions of hits. As too are other groups and bands, and there aren’t complaints about A-ha or Depeche Mode etc.

Hector Faune of Broken Record (Vanilla Ninja), had their own VN videos removed!
Other fans had their own concert recordings removed as well.

Yes we can move to another hosting site but what is to stop EOCP from attacking there to? Plus YouTube is the most popular so is best to promote VN on.

Well I have already started the protest, but on my own I am weak. However with many fans we could put up a fight, hence this post. YouTube is visited by thousands of VN and Lenna fans, plus possibly there are many other fans being attacked by EOCP, and overall YouTube has millions of music visitors every day.
Even if we could unite the fans from this website and possibly the other VN fan sites we would have a powerful voice, and if not against EOCP then against their governing body or minister.

Basically my lone fight won’t win, and I don’t want to fight a lost cause if nobody is interested. I won’t suggest I have the fan site’s support unless this is true. Also before we move on this, I think we should confirm we have the backing of Lenna and VN, and they want us to fight this and post their material online. Then we can address secondary copyrights.

[Annomalia]

Zitat von NinjaRebel

Surprisingly I got a rapid reply from Hector Faune with full backing and support - authorisation.

Oh God! If Hector Faune has allowed you to publish VN videos then this is a different story. Broken Records have bought officially the VN copyrights so I don't see why EOCP should act like that

Zitat von NinjaRebel

but they still pursued a video of Ballroom Blitz which is a Slade song and wasn’t even a released song by VN.

Hector Faune of Broken Record (Vanilla Ninja), had their own VN videos removed!

Yes, I agree that in this case they are just hunting you down That's the same case as Within Temptation

[suurprobleem]

Ninjarebel i'm totally speechless!

Now i'm totally convinced, that we have to do something!

BTW! If you remember we had similar problem before. It was thread about it in vnboard. EOCP claimed in that time, that they wanna simply money from youtube for those videos. I mean they wanted money, as big record companies, who got it from youtube. Youtube pays them (big labels) for people watching their videos...

But, if EOCP wanna delete Broken Records videos, than this is totally unacceptable, incomprehensible and supercilious!

[Lexus]

Ok, can we ask EOCP about what kind of copyright or whatever they have... what arguments? Or even ask youtube administration if they can check legality of EOCP's complaints. Also consultation of a lawyer will be very useful in this case...

[Annomalia]

http://www.eako.ee/index2.htm

As I understand, they are an organization of producers, which is fighting against piracy in Internet. But if the Ninjas owe their copyrights in Estonia and Broken Records have the copyrights in Latin America then I don't understand what they want

[Crazy_Ninja]

The only person who could win this is Hector Faune. He has the rights with a legal paper.
We only can get from him a message in an internet site which doesn't give anything to fight against EOCP and your names won't figure anywhere in the list of person who may upload videos or have any rights to distribute material because you only have verbal confirmation and no paper with facts.

After all laws, we don't really have rights to even publish concert videos. Because there is an ''owner'' for the concert itself, there is an owner for every photo, there is an owner for every audio. Like EOCP wrote to me in our conversation ''If the artist wants to be promoted, then they are more than welcome to do it by their own''. Because they are the only ones to whom belong all the rights connecting them.

If we will fight against EOCP then after all laws - we will lose. The only person who can try to make things normal is Hector or better - VN by themselfs.

That is so stupid to read and see that even Hectors material has been removed. That's totally screwed up. I suggest to move this thing through Hector and we ALL should be his backing support... But if we try to write personally, we'll lose anyway...

[LoveIsLenna]

Zitat von Lexus

Ok, can we ask EOCP about what kind of copyright or whatever they have... what arguments? Or even ask youtube administration if they can check legality of EOCP's complaints. Also consultation of a lawyer will be very useful in this case...

That is the issue. As Annomalia says, you'd think the holders of the rights would be the record company or VN themselves. This "EOCP" seems a larger body wanting to oversee rights on behalf of others. Maybe they they have no right. Especially not for a record company.

The point of attack is, like Lexus says, maybe to youtube and try and get the EOCP banned! Explain that EOCP is a fake body and has no right over these videos. Ask to see any proof that EOCP has any such authority, or even that they are a legitimate organistion. Add that the true rights holders are the record companies and band themselves, and the RC actually gave permission.

Superficially, it looks like the EOCP, if real, is some manufactured body with little power, and their only endeavour is to create power. Although, it doesn't explain the discrimination against VN.

Naturally, you have my support 100% with the campaign. As a fan way outside the EU, I've used youtube to help promote the band. Even for Christmas, I sent emails that included a link to Lenna's "Have a merry little christmas" from suur's dailymotion site. Of course, the first place I checked was youtube.

Remember, good will always triumph over evil.

[NinjaRebel]

Sorry for the delay – I have been very busy. I see EOCP are still busy and has removed and got banned more VN videos and posters.

Yes EOCP want money from YouTube and another source, but why should they get it!?
They first said they represent the record companies and artist, but after when I returned their argument with the backing of Broken Records and in their representation Vanilla Ninja, they furthered their argument to the writers and producers, who aren’t even Estonian. Then they said they represent ALL bands and music regardless of which country (which is obviously bullshit).
The fight continues I have more correspondents and will post them later, when I get time.

I think some waves in the press and a few public fan petitions to the parliament might do the trick. Yes there is a copy right law, but this organisation is trigger happy and vindictive. We need to band together and make a fuss. Me writing alone will have little impact, but if I represent 1000 outspoken fans, then it might be looked at. They don’t have to be Lenna and VN fans as EOCP are targeting other bands too.
I am willing to make a fight but I am very busy right now and won’t have time for another month.

Alternatively we could change tactics and swamp YouTube with VN and Lenna videos.
If we all create accounts and simply all upload videos and continue to do so, I am sure at some point they will give up, because I think they are a small team.